[NEWS] The Flintstones returning with new animated series

[Your Name]

From ComingSoon.net ...


The Flintstones returning to TV with new animated series
--------------------------------------------------------
Variety reports that The Flintstones are rolling back into
town with a brand new animated series officially in the
works at Warner Bros. Animation. WB will team with
Elizabeth Banks' Brownstone Productions for the new
series, described as "a primetime animated adult comedy
series based on an original idea featuring characters
from The Flintstones."

No official network is attached to the new series, but
there's plenty of places that The Flintstones could land.

A comical take on a prehistoric family, The Flintstones 
followed the titular family of Fred, Wilma, and Pebbles,
plus their neighbors The Rubbles and a variety of
prehistoric beasts functioning as household appliances
and tools.

First debuting in 1960, The Flintstones ran for six
seasons, setting a record for a primetime animated series
that would not be beat for nearly 30 years (when it was
overtaken by The Simpsons). There have since been several
spin-offs and new shows from The Flintstones including
The Pebbles and Bamm-Bamm Show, The Flintstone Comedy
Hour, The New Fred and Barney Show, Fred and Barney Meet
The Thing, The Flintstone Comedy Show, and The Flintstone
Kids.

The main characters have enjoyed a healthy life after
their series as spokesmen for Fruity and Cocoa Pebbles
since the 1970s. The franchise was previously brought to
the big screen as a live-action film in 1994 and was f
ollowed by a sequel, The Flinstones in Viva Rock Vegas,
in 2000.


<https://www.comingsoon.net/tv/news/1082373-the-flintstones-returning-to-tv-with-new-animated-series>

[anim8rfsk]

Post by Your Name
From ComingSoon.net ...
The Flintstones returning to TV with new animated series
--------------------------------------------------------
Variety reports that The Flintstones are rolling back into
town with a brand new animated series officially in the
works at Warner Bros. Animation. WB will team with
Elizabeth Banks' Brownstone Productions for the new
series, described as "a primetime animated adult comedy
series based on an original idea featuring characters
from The Flintstones."
No official network is attached to the new series, but
there's plenty of places that The Flintstones could land.
A comical take on a prehistoric family, The Flintstones
followed the titular family of Fred, Wilma, and Pebbles,
plus their neighbors The Rubbles and a variety of
prehistoric beasts functioning as household appliances
and tools.
First debuting in 1960, TheFlintstonesran for six
seasons, setting a record for a primetime animated series
that would not be beat for nearly 30 years (when it was
overtaken by The Simpsons). There have since been several
spin-offs and new shows from The Flintstones including
The Pebbles and Bamm-Bamm Show, The Flintstone Comedy
Hour, The New Fred and Barney Show, Fred and Barney Meet
The Thing, The Flintstone Comedy Show, and The Flintstone
Kids.
The main characters have enjoyed a healthy life after
their series as spokesmen for Fruity and Cocoa Pebbles
since the 1970s. The franchise was previously brought to
the big screen as a live-action film in 1994 and was f
ollowed by a sequel, The Flinstones in Viva Rock Vegas,
in 2000.
<https://www.comingsoon.net/tv/news/1082373-the-flintstones-returning-to-tv-wi
th-new-animated-series>

So this is the first Flintstones of the 21st Century and the new Millennium?
Really?

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Your Name
From ComingSoon.net ...
The Flintstones returning to TV with new animated series
--------------------------------------------------------
Variety reports that The Flintstones are rolling back into
town with a brand new animated series officially in the
works at Warner Bros. Animation. WB will team with
Elizabeth Banks' Brownstone Productions for the new
series, described as "a primetime animated adult comedy
series based on an original idea featuring characters
from The Flintstones."
No official network is attached to the new series, but
there's plenty of places that The Flintstones could land.
A comical take on a prehistoric family, The Flintstones
followed the titular family of Fred, Wilma, and Pebbles,
plus their neighbors The Rubbles and a variety of
prehistoric beasts functioning as household appliances
and tools.
First debuting in 1960, TheFlintstonesran for six
seasons, setting a record for a primetime animated series
that would not be beat for nearly 30 years (when it was
overtaken by The Simpsons). There have since been several
spin-offs and new shows from The Flintstones including
The Pebbles and Bamm-Bamm Show, The Flintstone Comedy
Hour, The New Fred and Barney Show, Fred and Barney Meet
The Thing, The Flintstone Comedy Show, and The Flintstone
Kids.
The main characters have enjoyed a healthy life after
their series as spokesmen for Fruity and Cocoa Pebbles
since the 1970s. The franchise was previously brought to
the big screen as a live-action film in 1994 and was f
ollowed by a sequel, The Flinstones in Viva Rock Vegas,
in 2000.
<https://www.comingsoon.net/tv/news/1082373-the-flintstones-returning-to-tv-wi
th-new-animated-series>

So this is the first Flintstones of the 21st Century and the new Millennium?
Really?

Didn't Fred play a mobster "I work, ya know, 'construction'" on Harvey Birdman?

[A Friend]

Post by Your Name
From ComingSoon.net ...
The Flintstones returning to TV with new animated series
--------------------------------------------------------
Variety reports that The Flintstones are rolling back into
town with a brand new animated series officially in the
works at Warner Bros. Animation. WB will team with
Elizabeth Banks' Brownstone Productions for the new
series, described as "a primetime animated adult comedy
series based on an original idea featuring characters
from The Flintstones."

This is said as if the original hadn't been pitched as "a primetime
animated adult comedy series," which is why you have ads showing Fred
smoking Kools on YouTube, and everybody thinks it's strange.

Elizabeth Banks the actor, eh? She's got a few irons in the fire these
days. Good for her.

[Paul S Person]

Post by A Friend

Post by Your Name
From ComingSoon.net ...
The Flintstones returning to TV with new animated series
--------------------------------------------------------
Variety reports that The Flintstones are rolling back into
town with a brand new animated series officially in the
works at Warner Bros. Animation. WB will team with
Elizabeth Banks' Brownstone Productions for the new
series, described as "a primetime animated adult comedy
series based on an original idea featuring characters
from The Flintstones."

This is said as if the original hadn't been pitched as "a primetime
animated adult comedy series," which is why you have ads showing Fred
smoking Kools on YouTube, and everybody thinks it's strange.

As a kid, I liked it better than the Jetsons. Even though I was an
ever bigger Science Fiction fan than I am now (ahh, the enthusiasms of
youth!).

But I never really understood it. Well, not until I "discovered" The
Honeymooners, anyway. So, yes, for the 50s/60s (I forget exactly
when), it was "adult".

And, of course, "adult" today covers a lot more ground than smoking
tobacco. Which, BTW, was an accepted activity back then. Today we have
to ask if the inevitable movie will be R-rated.

Post by A Friend
Elizabeth Banks the actor, eh? She's got a few irons in the fire these
days. Good for her.

[the dog from that film you saw]

Post by Your Name
From ComingSoon.net ...
   The Flintstones returning to TV with new animated series

will this one be funny?
it was on tv all the time when i was a kid and i watched it for some
reason yet can't think of any moment whatsoever in which it made me
laugh - despite the rubbish canned laughter.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by the dog from that film you saw

Post by Your Name
From ComingSoon.net ...
The Flintstones returning to TV with new animated series

will this one be funny?
it was on tv all the time when i was a kid and i watched it for some
reason yet can't think of any moment whatsoever in which it made me
laugh - despite the rubbish canned laughter.

I'm seeing a bit of a logistics problem here in performing before a live
audience.

[Paul S Person]

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:22:40 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by the dog from that film you saw

Post by Your Name
From ComingSoon.net ...
The Flintstones returning to TV with new animated series

will this one be funny?
it was on tv all the time when i was a kid and i watched it for some
reason yet can't think of any moment whatsoever in which it made me
laugh - despite the rubbish canned laughter.

I'm seeing a bit of a logistics problem here in performing before a live
audience.

1. Animated movies are performed before live audiences, and generally
have no sound track. Where there's a will, there's a way.

2. Every home that tuned in to it provided it's own live audience.
Added together, every episode had a very large live audience indeed!

3. Laugh tracks are not needed if the material is funny, and cannot
make a dud into an acceptable show, never mind a hit. They are, then,
a reflection of the Network's /doubt/ that their show is worth
watching.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by the dog from that film you saw

Post by Your Name
From ComingSoon.net ...
The Flintstones returning to TV with new animated series

will this one be funny?
it was on tv all the time when i was a kid and i watched it for some
reason yet can't think of any moment whatsoever in which it made me
laugh - despite the rubbish canned laughter.

I'm seeing a bit of a logistics problem here in performing before a live
audience.

1. Animated movies are performed before live audiences, and generally
have no sound track. Where there's a will, there's a way.
2. Every home that tuned in to it provided it's own live audience.
Added together, every episode had a very large live audience indeed!
3. Laugh tracks are not needed if the material is funny, and cannot
make a dud into an acceptable show, never mind a hit. They are, then,
a reflection of the Network's /doubt/ that their show is worth
watching.

Thank you for explaining that members of the television audience aren't
dead.

For those of you who don't know, television comedies had a laugh track
for a number of reasons. The Flintstone premiered in 1960. Plenty of
those in the audience remembered radio comedy programs which were
nearly always broadcast live in front of a studio audience. Radio never
had laugh tracks and was always performed straight through. In early
days, both the New York and Los Angeles feeds were live, but as they
began adapting recording technology, the west coast feed was recorded.
Sometimes they'd make corrections in time to feed the west coast three
hours later.

With the three-camera setup on film, the episodes weren't necessarily
run straight through. There still had to be time for camera setups. If a
scene had to be redone, the audience was no longer in the mood for
laughing. Hence, the laugh track. The laugh track isn't necessarily
there because the jokes fell flat or the performances were limp, but
because television producers assumed the television audience still
wanted television that was like radio.

It took decades to get away from the laugh track.

The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein of other
popular comedy, not because they were trying to force the jokes on an
audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny, if it wasn't timeless,
it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

Yeah, we know that the voice performance and animation of Fred Flinstone is
based on Jackie Gleason as Ralph Kramden in The Honeymooners skit on his
variety show (and single season stand along program), but the humor of The
Flintstones better resembles Life of Riley as I see it. The Flintstones
were middle class, whereas the Kramdens were working poor during less
properous times.

Also, The Flintstones was satirizing suburban life and modern society.
There was no satire in The Honeymooners.

If they're trying to re-create the 1960s, then they need to do the laugh
track.

[Ubiquitous]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein of other
popular comedy, not because they were trying to force the jokes on an
audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny, if it wasn't timeless,
it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology principal
of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear someone else
laughing at it.


--
Watching Democrats come up with schemes to "catch Trump" is like
watching Wile E. Coyote trying to catch Road Runner.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein of other
popular comedy, not because they were trying to force the jokes on an
audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny, if it wasn't timeless,
it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology principal
of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear someone else
laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.

The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

[Paul S Person]

On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:01:16 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein of other
popular comedy, not because they were trying to force the jokes on an
audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny, if it wasn't timeless,
it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology principal
of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear someone else
laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.

But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

[A Friend]

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:01:16 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein of other
popular comedy, not because they were trying to force the jokes on an
audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny, if it wasn't timeless,
it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology principal
of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear someone else
laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

Episodes of the later seasons of ALL IN THE FAMILY were played for a
studio audience for "live reactions." The show was produced on a
closed set. I never understood why they didn't want to do the show in
front of an audience anymore. I also didn't see the point of
after-the-fact "live reactions." When the series started, O'Connor and
Stapleton would sit at the piano and sing the theme for that week's
audience as a warm-up.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by A Friend

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein of other
popular comedy, not because they were trying to force the jokes on an
audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny, if it wasn't timeless,
it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology
principal of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear
someone else laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

Episodes of the later seasons of ALL IN THE FAMILY were played for a
studio audience for "live reactions." The show was produced on a
closed set. I never understood why they didn't want to do the show in
front of an audience anymore. I also didn't see the point of
after-the-fact "live reactions." When the series started, O'Connor and
Stapleton would sit at the piano and sing the theme for that week's
audience as a warm-up.

Live studio audience (so you didn't think they were corpses) was a mid
to late '70s thing. We've discussed that Tony Randall demanded that The
Odd Couple change from movie-like one-camera closed set to three-camera
in front of an audience. Those early episodes looked like a movie
because those were the movie sets.

But I thought All In The Family was three-camera to begin with,
attempting to run straight through like a play. Wasn't it? I don't
recall noticing any difference between first season and later seasons.
That was obviously not a set meant for single camera.

The only live reaction I recall was applause, but I haven't watched an
episode in years.

[anim8rfsk]

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by A Friend

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:01:16 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein of
other
popular comedy, not because they were trying to force the jokes on an
audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny, if it wasn't timeless,
it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology
principal of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear
someone else laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

Episodes of the later seasons of ALL IN THE FAMILY were played for a
studio audience for "live reactions." The show was produced on a
closed set. I never understood why they didn't want to do the show in
front of an audience anymore. I also didn't see the point of
after-the-fact "live reactions." When the series started, O'Connor and
Stapleton would sit at the piano and sing the theme for that week's
audience as a warm-up.

Live studio audience (so you didn't think they were corpses) was a mid
to late '70s thing. We've discussed that Tony Randall demanded that The
Odd Couple change from movie-like one-camera closed set to three-camera
in front of an audience. Those early episodes looked like a movie
because those were the movie sets.
But I thought All In The Family was three-camera to begin with,
attempting to run straight through like a play. Wasn't it? I don't
recall noticing any difference between first season and later seasons.
That was obviously not a set meant for single camera.
The only live reaction I recall was applause, but I haven't watched an
episode in years.

Randall was on Carson talking about them having a laugh machine that some guy
played like a piano. Randall said the machine itself worked wonderfully, but
the guy playing it had no sense of humor whatsoever and would laugh as
inappropriately as Tracy Spiridakos smiles.

[A Friend]

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by A Friend

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein of other
popular comedy, not because they were trying to force the jokes on an
audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny, if it wasn't timeless,
it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology
principal of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear
someone else laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

Episodes of the later seasons of ALL IN THE FAMILY were played for a
studio audience for "live reactions." The show was produced on a
closed set. I never understood why they didn't want to do the show in
front of an audience anymore. I also didn't see the point of
after-the-fact "live reactions." When the series started, O'Connor and
Stapleton would sit at the piano and sing the theme for that week's
audience as a warm-up.

Live studio audience (so you didn't think they were corpses) was a mid
to late '70s thing. We've discussed that Tony Randall demanded that The
Odd Couple change from movie-like one-camera closed set to three-camera
in front of an audience. Those early episodes looked like a movie
because those were the movie sets.

I didn't know that! Makes perfect sense, though.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
But I thought All In The Family was three-camera to begin with,
attempting to run straight through like a play. Wasn't it?

Yes, and it stayed three-camera throughout its run. I *think* it was
on tape because they originally wanted the look and feel of live TV.

There were many three-camera comedies that didn't have a live audience
but wanted to convince us that they did.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
I don't recall noticing any difference between first season and later
seasons. That was obviously not a set meant for single camera.

The last time I saw the set, it was used for "The Manny," the show
starring Kevin in THIS IS US. "The Manny" had a live audience, BTW.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The only live reaction I recall was applause, but I haven't watched an
episode in years.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein of other
popular comedy, not because they were trying to force the jokes on an
audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny, if it wasn't timeless,
it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology principal
of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear someone else
laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

This would be really tricky to do. Now, Rocky and his Friends/The
Bullwinkle Show could have been recorded as a radio program in front of
a studio audience. The animation was terrible, particularly in season 1
using an animation house that had absolutely no experience. They relied
on clever wording sometimes supplemented with a sound effect. It was
very much like radio comedy writing.

There was no laugh track, of course.

The Flintstones relied on visual gags.

You have to record the voice actors first before the animation so the
mouth movements match. You could record in front of an audience, but the
audience won't laugh at the visual gags, not yet created.

I guess after the animation is finished, you'd bring the voice cast back
to perform in front of the projected cartoon, but the voices just won't
match the mouth movements and the actors will be reacting to the
laughter, so everything will get out of synch.

The result won't be like a radio program and I have trouble imagining
how the sound track could be edited together for something acceptable to
the television viewer. We may be stuck with the laugh track on this.

[Paul S Person]

On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 17:37:01 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein of other
popular comedy, not because they were trying to force the jokes on an
audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny, if it wasn't timeless,
it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology principal
of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear someone else
laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

This would be really tricky to do. Now, Rocky and his Friends/The
Bullwinkle Show could have been recorded as a radio program in front of
a studio audience. The animation was terrible, particularly in season 1
using an animation house that had absolutely no experience. They relied
on clever wording sometimes supplemented with a sound effect. It was
very much like radio comedy writing.
There was no laugh track, of course.

Actually, when the VHS tapes were being done, the story was that the
very first sequence (the really really long one about Mooseberries)
was /permanently bonded/ with a laugh track, and so could not be used.

The DVDs, however, overcame that problem. Perhaps they found a
soundtrack that was not permanently bonded with the laugh track, or
perhaps they re-recorded it, who can say?

In any case, the voices are not the same as they became later -- the
same voice actors, no doubt, but their performances changed over time
and then held steady.

And, yes, Rocky & Bullwinkle has always been that it was very, very
punny. And Bullwinkle was the ultimate Straight Man.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones relied on visual gags.
You have to record the voice actors first before the animation so the
mouth movements match. You could record in front of an audience, but the
audience won't laugh at the visual gags, not yet created.
I guess after the animation is finished, you'd bring the voice cast back
to perform in front of the projected cartoon, but the voices just won't
match the mouth movements and the actors will be reacting to the
laughter, so everything will get out of synch.

I guess I wan't clear:

you don't "bring the voice cast back" -- you /play the episode with
it's existing soundtrack/. That's the point -- you can run the entire
episode in one sequence with no setups or interruptions (except for
commercial breaks), so the audience never gets bored by repetition.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The result won't be like a radio program and I have trouble imagining
how the sound track could be edited together for something acceptable to
the television viewer. We may be stuck with the laugh track on this.

The result would be /exactly/ like a radio program if broadcast live:
the audience reactions would also be broadcast live. Surely those
radio audiences expected to hear /both/ the performers /and/ the
audience at the same time. Well, now they could /see/ the animation,
/hear/ the voice actors, and /hear/ the audience all at the same time.

Alternately, the audience reactions could be recorded and then mixed
with the original for broadcast later. But, hopefully, not
/permanently/ mixed.

But that would have required people in charge who were smarter than
the average rock.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein
of other popular comedy, not because they were trying to force
the jokes on an audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny,
if it wasn't timeless, it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology
principal of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear
someone else laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

This would be really tricky to do. Now, Rocky and his Friends/The
Bullwinkle Show could have been recorded as a radio program in front of
a studio audience. The animation was terrible, particularly in season 1
using an animation house that had absolutely no experience. They relied
on clever wording sometimes supplemented with a sound effect. It was
very much like radio comedy writing.
There was no laugh track, of course.

Actually, when the VHS tapes were being done, the story was that the
very first sequence (the really really long one about Mooseberries)
was /permanently bonded/ with a laugh track, and so could not be used.
The DVDs, however, overcame that problem. Perhaps they found a
soundtrack that was not permanently bonded with the laugh track, or
perhaps they re-recorded it, who can say?

I've never seen it on home video, only in second run syndication. I just
don't recall a laugh track. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

Post by Paul S Person
In any case, the voices are not the same as they became later -- the
same voice actors, no doubt, but their performances changed over time
and then held steady.

Bill Scott wasn't a voice actor. He definitely got better. June Forray
was, and the rest were well-known actors from radio like William Conrad
and Hans Conreid and I'm forgetting who else.

Post by Paul S Person
And, yes, Rocky & Bullwinkle has always been that it was very, very
punny. And Bullwinkle was the ultimate Straight Man.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones relied on visual gags.
You have to record the voice actors first before the animation so the
mouth movements match. You could record in front of an audience, but the
audience won't laugh at the visual gags, not yet created.
I guess after the animation is finished, you'd bring the voice cast back
to perform in front of the projected cartoon, but the voices just won't
match the mouth movements and the actors will be reacting to the
laughter, so everything will get out of synch.

you don't "bring the voice cast back" -- you /play the episode with
it's existing soundtrack/. That's the point -- you can run the entire
episode in one sequence with no setups or interruptions (except for
commercial breaks), so the audience never gets bored by repetition.

Yes, I got that the first time, but that won't work as the dialogue
won't have gaps in it if something gets a good laugh. The actors have to
react to the audience.

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .

[Paul S Person]

On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 16:18:18 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein
of other popular comedy, not because they were trying to force
the jokes on an audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny,
if it wasn't timeless, it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology
principal of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear
someone else laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

This would be really tricky to do. Now, Rocky and his Friends/The
Bullwinkle Show could have been recorded as a radio program in front of
a studio audience. The animation was terrible, particularly in season 1
using an animation house that had absolutely no experience. They relied
on clever wording sometimes supplemented with a sound effect. It was
very much like radio comedy writing.
There was no laugh track, of course.

Actually, when the VHS tapes were being done, the story was that the
very first sequence (the really really long one about Mooseberries)
was /permanently bonded/ with a laugh track, and so could not be used.
The DVDs, however, overcame that problem. Perhaps they found a
soundtrack that was not permanently bonded with the laugh track, or
perhaps they re-recorded it, who can say?

I've never seen it on home video, only in second run syndication. I just
don't recall a laugh track. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

I don't recall one from when I saw it on TV either, but there was a
claim out there that, at some point, one was permanently added. But
who can really say?

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person
In any case, the voices are not the same as they became later -- the
same voice actors, no doubt, but their performances changed over time
and then held steady.

Bill Scott wasn't a voice actor. He definitely got better. June Forray
was, and the rest were well-known actors from radio like William Conrad
and Hans Conreid and I'm forgetting who else.

It's been a while since I watched them, and it was only a few of the
earlist episodes.

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person
And, yes, Rocky & Bullwinkle has always been that it was very, very
punny. And Bullwinkle was the ultimate Straight Man.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones relied on visual gags.
You have to record the voice actors first before the animation so the
mouth movements match. You could record in front of an audience, but the
audience won't laugh at the visual gags, not yet created.
I guess after the animation is finished, you'd bring the voice cast back
to perform in front of the projected cartoon, but the voices just won't
match the mouth movements and the actors will be reacting to the
laughter, so everything will get out of synch.

you don't "bring the voice cast back" -- you /play the episode with
it's existing soundtrack/. That's the point -- you can run the entire
episode in one sequence with no setups or interruptions (except for
commercial breaks), so the audience never gets bored by repetition.

Yes, I got that the first time, but that won't work as the dialogue
won't have gaps in it if something gets a good laugh. The actors have to
react to the audience.

Now /there/ is something that, admittedly, would be different from
radio. But not doing so would be a lot closer than a canned laugh
track. Which all seemed the same to me when I heard them, probably
because they never seemed to have anything to with what was happening
in the show.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein
of other popular comedy, not because they were trying to force
the jokes on an audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny,
if it wasn't timeless, it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology
principal of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear
someone else laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

This would be really tricky to do. Now, Rocky and his Friends/The
Bullwinkle Show could have been recorded as a radio program in front of
a studio audience. The animation was terrible, particularly in season 1
using an animation house that had absolutely no experience. They relied
on clever wording sometimes supplemented with a sound effect. It was
very much like radio comedy writing.
There was no laugh track, of course.

Actually, when the VHS tapes were being done, the story was that the
very first sequence (the really really long one about Mooseberries)
was /permanently bonded/ with a laugh track, and so could not be used.
The DVDs, however, overcame that problem. Perhaps they found a
soundtrack that was not permanently bonded with the laugh track, or
perhaps they re-recorded it, who can say?

I've never seen it on home video, only in second run syndication. I just
don't recall a laugh track. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

I don't recall one from when I saw it on TV either, but there was a
claim out there that, at some point, one was permanently added. But
who can really say?

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person
In any case, the voices are not the same as they became later -- the
same voice actors, no doubt, but their performances changed over time
and then held steady.

Bill Scott wasn't a voice actor. He definitely got better. June Forray
was, and the rest were well-known actors from radio like William Conrad
and Hans Conreid and I'm forgetting who else.

It's been a while since I watched them, and it was only a few of the
earlist episodes.

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person
And, yes, Rocky & Bullwinkle has always been that it was very, very
punny. And Bullwinkle was the ultimate Straight Man.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones relied on visual gags.
You have to record the voice actors first before the animation so the
mouth movements match. You could record in front of an audience, but the
audience won't laugh at the visual gags, not yet created.
I guess after the animation is finished, you'd bring the voice cast back
to perform in front of the projected cartoon, but the voices just won't
match the mouth movements and the actors will be reacting to the
laughter, so everything will get out of synch.

you don't "bring the voice cast back" -- you /play the episode with
it's existing soundtrack/. That's the point -- you can run the entire
episode in one sequence with no setups or interruptions (except for
commercial breaks), so the audience never gets bored by repetition.

Yes, I got that the first time, but that won't work as the dialogue
won't have gaps in it if something gets a good laugh. The actors have to
react to the audience.

Now /there/ is something that, admittedly, would be different from
radio. But not doing so would be a lot closer than a canned laugh
track. Which all seemed the same to me when I heard them, probably
because they never seemed to have anything to with what was happening

Well, most dialogue tracks for animation aren't done like radio. Rocky
and Bullwinkle was the exception.

In an absolutely attrocious development for close to 20 years now, the
voice actors don't even work together. There is no table read, and they
are all recorded separately. They don't react to each other.

That's looping dialogue. That's not acting.

[anim8rfsk]

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person
Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:01:16 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein
of other popular comedy, not because they were trying to force
the jokes on an audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny,
if it wasn't timeless, it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology
principal of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear
someone else laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience
laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in
front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

This would be really tricky to do. Now, Rocky and his Friends/The
Bullwinkle Show could have been recorded as a radio program in front of
a studio audience. The animation was terrible, particularly in season 1
using an animation house that had absolutely no experience. They relied
on clever wording sometimes supplemented with a sound effect. It was
very much like radio comedy writing.
There was no laugh track, of course.

Actually, when the VHS tapes were being done, the story was that the
very first sequence (the really really long one about Mooseberries)
was /permanently bonded/ with a laugh track, and so could not be used.
The DVDs, however, overcame that problem. Perhaps they found a
soundtrack that was not permanently bonded with the laugh track, or
perhaps they re-recorded it, who can say?

I've never seen it on home video, only in second run syndication. I just
don't recall a laugh track. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

I don't recall one from when I saw it on TV either, but there was a
claim out there that, at some point, one was permanently added. But
who can really say?

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person
In any case, the voices are not the same as they became later -- the
same voice actors, no doubt, but their performances changed over time
and then held steady.

Bill Scott wasn't a voice actor. He definitely got better. June Forray
was, and the rest were well-known actors from radio like William Conrad
and Hans Conreid and I'm forgetting who else.

It's been a while since I watched them, and it was only a few of the
earlist episodes.

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person
And, yes, Rocky & Bullwinkle has always been that it was very, very
punny. And Bullwinkle was the ultimate Straight Man.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones relied on visual gags.
You have to record the voice actors first before the animation so the
mouth movements match. You could record in front of an audience, but the
audience won't laugh at the visual gags, not yet created.
I guess after the animation is finished, you'd bring the voice cast back
to perform in front of the projected cartoon, but the voices just won't
match the mouth movements and the actors will be reacting to the
laughter, so everything will get out of synch.

you don't "bring the voice cast back" -- you /play the episode with
it's existing soundtrack/. That's the point -- you can run the entire
episode in one sequence with no setups or interruptions (except for
commercial breaks), so the audience never gets bored by repetition.

Yes, I got that the first time, but that won't work as the dialogue
won't have gaps in it if something gets a good laugh. The actors have to
react to the audience.

Now /there/ is something that, admittedly, would be different from
radio. But not doing so would be a lot closer than a canned laugh
track. Which all seemed the same to me when I heard them, probably
because they never seemed to have anything to with what was happening

Well, most dialogue tracks for animation aren't done like radio. Rocky
and Bullwinkle was the exception.
In an absolutely attrocious development for close to 20 years now, the
voice actors don't even work together. There is no table read, and they
are all recorded separately. They don't react to each other.
That's looping dialogue. That's not acting.

Way further back than 20 years. The first time I know of this being done on a
big scale was Star Trek TAS in 1972. It was out of necessity, as the Trek
actors were scattered across the globe. They sent them portable recorders and
scripts and had them read. The results were atrocious. Without the other
actors feeding you cues, the inevitable result is a totally flat read. It
didn't help that the acoustics were totally different for every actor as
well.

This should have put an end to the practice, but instead it caught on; one of
those 'common knowledge' things producers learn somewhere. I've seen them
gather all the actors in the studio and *still* have them go in the booth and
read each part separately rather than work together.

Idiots.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .
In an absolutely attrocious development for close to 20 years now, the
voice actors don't even work together. There is no table read, and they
are all recorded separately. They don't react to each other.
That's looping dialogue. That's not acting.

Way further back than 20 years. The first time I know of this being done on a
big scale was Star Trek TAS in 1972. It was out of necessity, as the Trek
actors were scattered across the globe. They sent them portable recorders and
scripts and had them read. The results were atrocious. Without the other
actors feeding you cues, the inevitable result is a totally flat read. It
didn't help that the acoustics were totally different for every actor as
well.

I forgot about that. Yes, you've pointed it out.

Post by anim8rfsk
This should have put an end to the practice, but instead it caught on; one of
those 'common knowledge' things producers learn somewhere. I've seen them
gather all the actors in the studio and *still* have them go in the booth and
read each part separately rather than work together.
Idiots.

So what was the first feature-length animated movie that did that?

[anim8rfsk]

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .
In an absolutely attrocious development for close to 20 years now, the
voice actors don't even work together. There is no table read, and they
are all recorded separately. They don't react to each other.
That's looping dialogue. That's not acting.

Way further back than 20 years. The first time I know of this being done on a
big scale was Star Trek TAS in 1972. It was out of necessity, as the Trek
actors were scattered across the globe. They sent them portable recorders and
scripts and had them read. The results were atrocious. Without the other
actors feeding you cues, the inevitable result is a totally flat read. It
didn't help that the acoustics were totally different for every actor as
well.

I forgot about that. Yes, you've pointed it out.

Post by anim8rfsk
This should have put an end to the practice, but instead it caught on; one of
those 'common knowledge' things producers learn somewhere. I've seen them
gather all the actors in the studio and *still* have them go in the booth and
read each part separately rather than work together.
Idiots.

So what was the first feature-length animated movie that did that?

I don't know. I know Anastasia did it in the 90s. Actually they did a wildly
worse version of it: They hired 'name' actors to make themselves feel
important, recorded a script, then kept rewriting the script as it went, and
had voice doubles read the new pages, and then years later had the original
cast (save those they'd fired in the meantime) dub the final.

And THEN the studio editors slide stuff around and even switched lines
between scenes because lip sync doesn't matter.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .
In an absolutely attrocious development for close to 20 years now, the
voice actors don't even work together. There is no table read, and they
are all recorded separately. They don't react to each other.
That's looping dialogue. That's not acting.

Way further back than 20 years. The first time I know of this being done on a
big scale was Star Trek TAS in 1972. It was out of necessity, as the Trek
actors were scattered across the globe. They sent them portable recorders and
scripts and had them read. The results were atrocious. Without the other
actors feeding you cues, the inevitable result is a totally flat read. It
didn't help that the acoustics were totally different for every actor as
well.

I forgot about that. Yes, you've pointed it out.

Post by anim8rfsk
This should have put an end to the practice, but instead it caught on; one of
those 'common knowledge' things producers learn somewhere. I've seen them
gather all the actors in the studio and *still* have them go in the booth and
read each part separately rather than work together.
Idiots.

So what was the first feature-length animated movie that did that?

I don't know. I know Anastasia did it in the 90s. Actually they did a wildly
worse version of it: They hired 'name' actors to make themselves feel
important, recorded a script, then kept rewriting the script as it went, and
had voice doubles read the new pages, and then years later had the original
cast (save those they'd fired in the meantime) dub the final.
And THEN the studio editors slide stuff around and even switched lines
between scenes because lip sync doesn't matter.

I remember a Mark Evanier column from years ago talking about one of his
voice actor faves (I forget who). The whole cast was in the booth
recording, and the director says "Hey Josh (not his name) slow it down
your 'Fred' is talking over 'Bob''s lines and Josh says: "Hey, I'm doing
both of those voices!".

[anim8rfsk]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .
In an absolutely attrocious development for close to 20 years now, the
voice actors don't even work together. There is no table read, and they
are all recorded separately. They don't react to each other.
That's looping dialogue. That's not acting.

Way further back than 20 years. The first time I know of this being done
on
a
big scale was Star Trek TAS in 1972. It was out of necessity, as the Trek
actors were scattered across the globe. They sent them portable recorders and
scripts and had them read. The results were atrocious. Without the other
actors feeding you cues, the inevitable result is a totally flat read. It
didn't help that the acoustics were totally different for every actor as
well.

I forgot about that. Yes, you've pointed it out.

Post by anim8rfsk
This should have put an end to the practice, but instead it caught on; one of
those 'common knowledge' things producers learn somewhere. I've seen them
gather all the actors in the studio and *still* have them go in the booth and
read each part separately rather than work together.
Idiots.

So what was the first feature-length animated movie that did that?

I don't know. I know Anastasia did it in the 90s. Actually they did a wildly
worse version of it: They hired 'name' actors to make themselves feel
important, recorded a script, then kept rewriting the script as it went, and
had voice doubles read the new pages, and then years later had the original
cast (save those they'd fired in the meantime) dub the final.
And THEN the studio editors slide stuff around and even switched lines
between scenes because lip sync doesn't matter.

I remember a Mark Evanier column from years ago talking about one of his
voice actor faves (I forget who). The whole cast was in the booth
recording, and the director says "Hey Josh (not his name) slow it down
your 'Fred' is talking over 'Bob''s lines and Josh says: "Hey, I'm doing
both of those voices!".

lol

[Adam H. Kerman]

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .
In an absolutely attrocious development for close to 20 years now, the
voice actors don't even work together. There is no table read, and they
are all recorded separately. They don't react to each other.
That's looping dialogue. That's not acting.

Way further back than 20 years. The first time I know of this being done on a
big scale was Star Trek TAS in 1972. It was out of necessity, as the Trek
actors were scattered across the globe. They sent them portable recorders and
scripts and had them read. The results were atrocious. Without the other
actors feeding you cues, the inevitable result is a totally flat read. It
didn't help that the acoustics were totally different for every actor as
well.

I forgot about that. Yes, you've pointed it out.

Post by anim8rfsk
This should have put an end to the practice, but instead it caught on; one of
those 'common knowledge' things producers learn somewhere. I've seen them
gather all the actors in the studio and *still* have them go in the booth and
read each part separately rather than work together.
Idiots.

So what was the first feature-length animated movie that did that?

I don't know. I know Anastasia did it in the 90s. Actually they did a wildly
worse version of it: They hired 'name' actors to make themselves feel
important, recorded a script, then kept rewriting the script as it went, and
had voice doubles read the new pages, and then years later had the original
cast (save those they'd fired in the meantime) dub the final.
And THEN the studio editors slide stuff around and even switched lines
between scenes because lip sync doesn't matter.

Good grief

[Paul S Person]

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by anim8rfsk

Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .
In an absolutely attrocious development for close to 20 years now, the
voice actors don't even work together. There is no table read, and they
are all recorded separately. They don't react to each other.
That's looping dialogue. That's not acting.

Way further back than 20 years. The first time I know of this being done on a
big scale was Star Trek TAS in 1972. It was out of necessity, as the Trek
actors were scattered across the globe. They sent them portable recorders and
scripts and had them read. The results were atrocious. Without the other
actors feeding you cues, the inevitable result is a totally flat read. It
didn't help that the acoustics were totally different for every actor as
well.

I forgot about that. Yes, you've pointed it out.

Post by anim8rfsk
This should have put an end to the practice, but instead it caught on; one of
those 'common knowledge' things producers learn somewhere. I've seen them
gather all the actors in the studio and *still* have them go in the booth and
read each part separately rather than work together.
Idiots.

So what was the first feature-length animated movie that did that?

I don't know. I know Anastasia did it in the 90s. Actually they did a wildly
worse version of it: They hired 'name' actors to make themselves feel
important, recorded a script, then kept rewriting the script as it went, and
had voice doubles read the new pages, and then years later had the original
cast (save those they'd fired in the meantime) dub the final.
And THEN the studio editors slide stuff around and even switched lines
between scenes because lip sync doesn't matter.

When /I/ see the animated /Anastasia/, I don't notice any of that.

Probably because it is so entertaining that I just don't care.

I guess it's about why a person watches movies: I watch a lot of
animation (which means a lot of kid-oriented animation, since most
animation is kid-oriented) because I /like/ animation.

And, as the allegedly-major live-action movies devolve into a series
of pointless remakes and meaningless fight sequences (even the most
spectacular CGI fails to produce satisfaction unless the story is
good), animated films have become /much/ more likely to tell a
coherent story. Which I also value.

But always I keep in mind the fact that good movies are where you find
them, not restricted to particular genres or stylistic approaches.

[Paul S Person]

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 19:43:29 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones had a laugh track because it was done in the vein
of other popular comedy, not because they were trying to force
the jokes on an audience reluctant to laugh. If it wasn't funny,
if it wasn't timeless, it wouldn't have lasted all this time.

One reason laugh tracks are used is based on the social pyschology
principal of contagion; people are more likely to laugh if they hear
someone else laughing at it.

You just explained the opposite, why a television viewer can find the
laugh track to be disconcerting: It's a recording of an audience laughing
at something unrelated, not the actual scene being supplemented with a
laugh track.
The only thing that might work is if the same scene is repeated in front
of an audience, combining laughter from an earlier take with video from
a later take (because they were using footage from a different camera
setup or something was improved in the later take).

But that would require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.
And, BTW, screening The Flintstones in front of a live audience and
recording any laughter that results would avoid the technical problems
you mentioned. And produce a result a lot closer to the desired goal
of doing what radio did.
But that would /also/ require ... intelligence ... on the part of the
people-in-charge.

This would be really tricky to do. Now, Rocky and his Friends/The
Bullwinkle Show could have been recorded as a radio program in front of
a studio audience. The animation was terrible, particularly in season 1
using an animation house that had absolutely no experience. They relied
on clever wording sometimes supplemented with a sound effect. It was
very much like radio comedy writing.
There was no laugh track, of course.

Actually, when the VHS tapes were being done, the story was that the
very first sequence (the really really long one about Mooseberries)
was /permanently bonded/ with a laugh track, and so could not be used.
The DVDs, however, overcame that problem. Perhaps they found a
soundtrack that was not permanently bonded with the laugh track, or
perhaps they re-recorded it, who can say?

I've never seen it on home video, only in second run syndication. I just
don't recall a laugh track. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

I don't recall one from when I saw it on TV either, but there was a
claim out there that, at some point, one was permanently added. But
who can really say?

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person
In any case, the voices are not the same as they became later -- the
same voice actors, no doubt, but their performances changed over time
and then held steady.

Bill Scott wasn't a voice actor. He definitely got better. June Forray
was, and the rest were well-known actors from radio like William Conrad
and Hans Conreid and I'm forgetting who else.

It's been a while since I watched them, and it was only a few of the
earlist episodes.

Post by Adam H. Kerman

Post by Paul S Person
And, yes, Rocky & Bullwinkle has always been that it was very, very
punny. And Bullwinkle was the ultimate Straight Man.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The Flintstones relied on visual gags.
You have to record the voice actors first before the animation so the
mouth movements match. You could record in front of an audience, but the
audience won't laugh at the visual gags, not yet created.
I guess after the animation is finished, you'd bring the voice cast back
to perform in front of the projected cartoon, but the voices just won't
match the mouth movements and the actors will be reacting to the
laughter, so everything will get out of synch.

you don't "bring the voice cast back" -- you /play the episode with
it's existing soundtrack/. That's the point -- you can run the entire
episode in one sequence with no setups or interruptions (except for
commercial breaks), so the audience never gets bored by repetition.

Yes, I got that the first time, but that won't work as the dialogue
won't have gaps in it if something gets a good laugh. The actors have to
react to the audience.

Now /there/ is something that, admittedly, would be different from
radio. But not doing so would be a lot closer than a canned laugh
track. Which all seemed the same to me when I heard them, probably
because they never seemed to have anything to with what was happening

Well, most dialogue tracks for animation aren't done like radio. Rocky
and Bullwinkle was the exception.
In an absolutely attrocious development for close to 20 years now, the
voice actors don't even work together. There is no table read, and they
are all recorded separately. They don't react to each other.
That's looping dialogue. That's not acting.

Although I /never/ buy a DVD for it's allegedly-special features
(particularly if the Special Edition with them costs more than the
not-so-special edition without them), I do /watch/ them as part of
ensuring that the DVD (and, more recently, BD) is defect-free.

So I see a lot of animated "making-of" things, and, while /some/ have
the actors recording after-the-fact, and /some/ have the actors
recording separately, /others/ have them recording together --
together enough that they interact with each other on camera between
dialogue takes.

So it's a mixed bag, so far as I can tell.

In some ways, the most interesting was a film featuring dragon. This
was a live-action film (?Dragonheart?) and the special feature showed
how the recorded Sean Connery first and recorded not just sound by
expression and used that the model the dragon's face on.

Or so they claimed. One reason I don't think much of these
allegedly-special features is that they make a lot of assertions which
simply dont hold up when you actually watch the film. What they claim
they thought they were doing is, all too often, quite different from
what they actually did. And I've seen the film to prove it!

[hector]

Post by the dog from that film you saw

Post by Your Name
From ComingSoon.net ...
The Flintstones returning to TV with new animated series

will this one be funny?
it was on tv all the time when i was a kid and i watched it for some
reason yet can't think of any moment whatsoever in which it made me
laugh - despite the rubbish canned laughter.

I watched the entire series in recent times again on dvd.
What I liked most was the 60sness of it all, especially in the last 2
seasons of 6. A particularly memorable episode was the 4th season
opener that featured Ann Margrock.
The first 2 seasons seemed lack lustre but it picks up in the 3rd.
Perhaps what the Simpsons took from it, you get celebrity characters and
pop culture references.